Accountability, Visionaries, and the Right-Hand Seat

[00:00:00] Everyone's like, oh, what do you do? I'm like, well, I'm part therapist, part ops consultant, part psychiatrist, part friend, part enemy. Having someone that can help you navigate those interpersonal relationships with employees and direct reports is invaluable. We started with that. You didn't execute, so we don't go to the next thing. So here's what's going to happen. We scheduled this for 30 minutes. We're three minutes in. Take the next 27 minutes

[00:00:25] and create that list. I'll wait. The road that we're about to go down, it's windy. It's uphill, downhill, a lot of bumps, some pothills. I'll try to point them out to you in advance. You're going to step in some of them. It's just going to happen and it's going to be uncomfortable. People like to be accountable. They want to know when they're successful. They don't always want to know when they're not successful, but everyone likes to hear, hey, you're on track. You're doing a great job. You're following through on what you need because then the next time they're not,

[00:00:54] because we're human, it makes the conversation much easier. Hey, welcome to Sales and Cigars, the podcast for entrepreneurs where the only smoke we blow is cigar smoke. I'm your host, Walter Crosby with Helix Sales Development. My guest today is a fellow podcaster and fractional COO. He's the guy who works with the visionary when they don't have an integrator, Matt Haney. And if you are a visionary looking for a right hand

[00:01:20] or an integrator, take the next 31 minutes and check out this podcast. Matt and I get into accountability, helping sales leaders work more effectively with a visionary. And then we talk about solving the real problems to scaling a business. So go grab a cigar cocktail, strap in for another fun episode of Sales and Cigars. Thanks.

[00:01:54] So Matt, appreciate you taking some time out of your busy schedule to jump on the program with me. Welcome. Thank you, Walter. Happy to be here, man. Really appreciate you giving me some time to get on in chat. So looking forward to our conversation today. Well, let's start where I often start. Is there a book that you reread or that you gift a lot to clients in a business setting?

[00:02:19] Well, if you asked me this three years ago, I would have said no. But yes is the short answer. And I re-gift the book that was originally given to me and I've sort of upped it. So these two live on my desk. The first one is the Maxwell Daily Reader by John Maxwell. And I kept this copy because you'll see in here, this says, Matt, thank you for helping us figure all this out. Enjoy the book

[00:02:47] with daily gratitude. So this was given to me by a client back in 23. Meaningful. That's cool. And I read it every day. John Maxwell is a very famous leadership coach and just awesome, awesome leader. And then I took that one step further and I started reading the Daily Stoic, which I now gift to clients. I read both of these every day or try to as much as I can. And I try to

[00:03:14] gift them because it's just a good way to start. It's a good way to... And if you see them on your desk, they're not intimidating. It's not a bunch of big words. It's pretty straightforward talk. Ryan Holiday does a pretty good job of taking some of those esoteric concepts and explaining them and breaking them down into real world applications. Absolutely. I get his daily email. Oh, good.

[00:03:43] I get his... I've read that book a couple of times. And I just leave it on the table where I do my reading in the morning and I pick it up. What about meditations? You ever tried to tackle that? You know, I really haven't. So I am blessed to have ADD and ADHD, whatever the hell you want to diagnose it with. I'd say it's a blessing because I think it's part of my superpower as well. But short

[00:04:09] answer to your question is no. And the long answer to it is I'm probably intimidated by it. I don't necessarily know where to start, right? What would it be? How would I do it? How would I know I'm successful? To me, it's just like, oh, that seems like a lot to take on. I don't disagree with that. But reading the daily, right? Going through that, going through that a couple

[00:04:33] of times and then going back to meditations. And it's tough. Trust me. I mean, it's really tough to get through. But if you've read Holiday's stuff, especially that book you referred to, it makes it a little bit easier. And you can reference them back and forth, right? Right. But it's a... The only thing about him is that he bugs me when he gets a little preachy.

[00:05:02] But otherwise... Yes, 100%. And Maxwell's sort of that way too. But I think like anything, you take what works and you kind of politely set the stuff that doesn't to the side. How'd you get into meditation? And do you follow a certain practice or a program or something? A friend of mine turned me on to meditations. And I was intimidated. And then he also turned me on to

[00:05:28] the Daily Stoic and then some of the other books that he's written. And I just, I started getting into it. And I just, I think the philosophy of, you know, being the virtues, I think are important. And just working on what you can control. Yeah. Especially in a business context. Right.

[00:05:53] Personally, it, you know, it matters. Like I've got, I bought his little tchotchke coins and I keep them on my desk. But I think it helps when you get off track or you start worrying about something. And I can't control what that person does or thinks. All I can control is how I deliver

[00:06:17] the energy I bring. And then, you know, how well do I communicate? Can I, can I improve my communication? So I think it, it forces us to look inward. Right. Which is usually where people are afraid to look. That's the hardest part. But it's, it's the most meaningful. And it requires that effort to make, to make improvement

[00:06:42] because transformation is just one of those things that, you know, takes time and effort. And if you're not thinking about what you could do better, regardless of the relationship, right. You're, you're probably not going to get to where you want to go because, you know, it has a lot to do, it's Park Avenue. Life is a two-way street. So if you think about your career, right. And, you know, being in leadership positions

[00:07:09] at various levels, what, when did you realize that the problems that are presented to you are not really the problem that you're trying to solve? That's such a great question. Cause it's like, oh, actually here's the issue. And I'm like, no, there's 12 underlying ones that are, that are the issue. Let's see. When did I realize that the problem I'm being told is the problem is actually not the problem? Well, that's

[00:07:39] fascinating because I work with visionary entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs who've started a business and figure out that they've gotten it to a certain point and don't necessarily know what to do with it after that reached a plateau, maybe not a plateau, but a moment in which they, um, they need help. And the one common theme with most of my successful relationships with visionaries is that they're humble and that they realize that they can't do it anymore.

[00:08:05] So I think every single engagement I've had in my career, there's been a problem. And the problem is generally that we're not doing something. We're not hitting our numbers. We're not hitting our margin. We're not expanding to, you know, product lines the way we want. And most of those times the entrepreneur doesn't know why. So they're looking at why they don't have an outcome instead of,

[00:08:31] you know, what might be causing it. And, uh, if there's one common theme, it's people, right? It's, it's their, their entrepreneurs inability to manage people or hold them accountable. So I don't know if that's a specific instance, but it is a recurring theme in that they don't necessarily know what to do with people. So when, when you have, um, you're, you're, you're already started down a path that,

[00:09:01] of a topic that I, I deal with on a regular, um, so people accountability, I mean, those two things can process is another component to that, um, especially in sales. But what I, what I see specifically around accountability, it's, it's very similar to what I see in, uh, with, with parents

[00:09:25] and children, right? Where, where, and I hate to make the analogy that, you know, visionaries and business owners are, um, they're, they need to think about their employees as children. They don't, but there's a relationship there that's, that parallels. And if we don't set the expectation of the child that we don't set the expectation of the employee and we, and we don't tell them

[00:09:49] what is expected with, with great specificity, right? Right. If we don't tell them that this is what the role requires, then we're setting them up for failure. Um, and you know, what else, I mean, I mean, is that something you see with accountability and other parts of an organization or is there, what else is, what's a, what's another component in, in your world? Look to, to sort of, as we say, double click on what you just said and you can't see my screen,

[00:10:18] but behind it is a, is a chat window that I'm having with one of the companies that I engage with. And I'm dealing with a director of delivery. He's a technology services, uh, director and he reports to me, I report to the CEO and he had a conversation at lunch with the CEO. They live in the same market. I live outside the market. And I got feedback from both of them. This is, this is what happened at the lunch. We had this conversation. We talked about this, we talked about that. To which

[00:10:45] I said to the person who reports directly to me, director of delivery, I said, sounds like that was an incredible lunch. How do we, you and me make sure that we don't lose sight of what was discussed and what was agreed upon? I said, cause it would be very disheartening for all of us. If the visionary leader thought founder of the business gave you a bunch of things to work on and you only picked up one or two of them. I said, we didn't record the conversation. So we don't really know what

[00:11:11] happened. Let's go back and you and I, and you give me a list of what you guys talked about. She says, oh yeah, yeah, sure, sure, sure. Well, then I go back to the visionary and I'm like, Hey, I'd got a download. Uh, I'm going to have a list of things just to make sure what you said is what he heard and vice versa. Great. That sounds like a fantastic thing. One day goes by, two days go by and I go deep breath. I said, Hey, where is this? Listen, we've missed the moment.

[00:11:39] Like I would, I thought I was perfectly clear when I said, Hey, this is for all of our benefit. This is not micromanagement. This is just management of expectations. This person said a list of things to you that he thinks is your priority based on his vision for the business. And now we're off into the weeds again, not, not taking advantage of it. So that is the simplest form of accountability that, um, should be very straightforward, but people process things

[00:12:04] differently. And unfortunately we're at a stalemate now. It's like we had this great chance and didn't execute on it. So I don't know if that's helpful, but it's a, it's certainly an example of, of accountability gone wrong. Well, you, you held them accountable and you're asking for what you asked for and you told them what you wanted, right? As clearly as you can. It's, it's a matter of

[00:12:28] execution. Um, so, but it comes back to like going back, like how many times do we have to go back to get the thing that we asked for? Um, that's the challenge I see with accountability, no matter where it is that, you know, it gets, it gets tiresome to keep like, Hey, you know, I had a salesperson the other day that I'm working with and they wanted help with this new thing. And I'm like,

[00:12:55] well, we've been talking about X for the last week and I still don't have that, you know, in your case, the list. Well, yeah, I haven't gotten to it yet. Like, okay, well, this is more important. Not to me. Yeah. Right. We started with that. You didn't execute. So we don't go to the next thing. Right. Right. So here's, what's going to happen. We scheduled this for 30 minutes for three minutes in

[00:13:18] take the next 27 minutes and create that list. I'll wait. I do those working sessions. Well, I call them working sessions somewhat regularly. Cause I do find that whenever I call a meeting or when I'm sure when you call a meeting, people show up and they listen and they they're present, but it's unfortunate that we have to use some of that time to work through things that should have been delivered before the meeting. But that's where we have to be flexible and understanding that,

[00:13:43] you know, people have, you know, day jobs, as I say, work on the business versus in the business. When I'm on the call, we're working on the business. It's some sort of strategy. It's a higher level. It's execution focused. Whereas they go back and deal with the problems in their department every single day. Those 30 minute working sessions are some of the most productive. And it feels a little bit like I'm enabling them to be honest, because they should have had that shit done before we got there. But, you know, it is what it is. Yeah. And it's a frustrating thing, but they,

[00:14:13] if, if, if they could just, it's getting them to grasp the point that if you do the little things and you do the thing that's going to have the most impact on the other things, all of those other little tedious things that you, you think makes you busy are, are going to become easier. And some of them go away. Non-existent. All that little stuff tends to go away. Yeah. Which is great. No, it's a great, it's a great question.

[00:14:39] What about accountability the other way? When you're the CEO, dude, you told me you were going to do X and it's Thursday and we're burning daylight. I had this conversation the other day. I always remind them that, you know, part of their purpose or reason for bringing me in is that there's nobody else in the business that can ask you hard questions. You, you can't necessarily

[00:15:06] weasel away. Not that they want to weasel away, but you, I'm going to hold you accountable to what you brought me in for, right? Because I'm not going to have a scenario in 30, 60, 90 days where you come back to me and say, I'm not successful, Matt, you're not doing your job. Well, I know my list of responsibilities. So the way I handle that most simply is I bring back the, you know, services agreement or list of problems that we agreed I would work on. And I'll flash those on the screen and

[00:15:33] I'll say, Hey, these are the 10 priorities that I have. These are my objectives. Are we in alignment? Yes, we are. Okay, great. Then in order to get those top three done, this is what I need from you. And again, I'll schedule a session. We'll talk through it with the advent of AI and recordings. We can turn so much conversation into action and accountability that I tend to use those tools quite a bit. But believe it or not, just like your reference to small children, people like to be

[00:16:03] accountable. They want to know when they're successful. They don't always want to know when they're not successful, but everyone likes to hear, Hey, you're on track. You're doing a great job. You're following through on what you need. Because then the next time they're not, because we're human, it makes the conversation much easier. So to answer your question directly, I go back to an agreed set of deliverables, which I produced, someone else agreed upon. And in order for me to get those done, I need people's help. I need people to help me move the

[00:16:32] needle. Yeah. So it's just reminding them. And what I find with that CEO or the president, right? That we're helping, consulting with, serving, whatever, however you want to position it. That when things go off track, right? Something was supposed to be done Monday, it's Thursday, it isn't done. When you call them and say, Hey, what happened? Right? Knowing that something happened,

[00:17:00] right? That they're like, damn it. Right? This thing happened, right? But I'm not making an excuse. I'll get it done. Okay. They never get angry. They never get upset. They never get frustrated because of what you said, right? We've gone to them and say, Okay, I'm the guy that's going to hold you accountable for the things, right? That's held you back in the past. And they're like, they always,

[00:17:29] let's say always, 90% of the time, that leader will be like, this is what we're asking you to do. This is what we're paying you for. Thank you. To add on to that, like I always say to them, what roadblocks are in the way? Clearly, there's something, Walter, that's keeping you from having the time or focus. And I think it's probably less, like you said earlier, less important than what I'm asking you to do to help advance the business

[00:17:57] as you hired me to do. So removing those roadblocks and the culprit most times is the visionary sitting in a seat that they're not supposed to be in. Because remember, when this visionary started this business, they were the head bottle washer, they were the chief, they were the cook, they were the steward, and they were the server as well. So making sure that they are empowered to get out of all those seats. Most times when they're not able to execute,

[00:18:27] it's because they're working one level down. And that happens all the time. That's a great point, right? Because they're working one level down. But here's the rub that I struggle with. And maybe you have some insights for the group. Because most of the audience are entrepreneurs and they're either visionary or an integrator and they're dancing, or they're trying to be both. Where they're doing the thing that's one level, two levels down.

[00:18:55] So it's either they're doing that, and they're not very good at it. Or they love it. And they don't want to give it up. That's it. So like, but you can't get the freedom. You can't get the scale. If you don't get the fuck out of the way as an individual. So what, what did you because if there's a if there's somebody self identifying

[00:19:22] with what we're talking about, what advice do you give them to be like, to get the fuck out of the way? Well, I'm going to step in your sandbox for a minute, and I welcome to be corrected. But founder led businesses, founder was obviously running sales at some point. CEOs always think about revenue. It's what keeps them up at night. And it's what makes them successful. I was talking earlier with the sales

[00:19:46] leader that, you know, trying to get the founder out of that sales seat, and hire someone to run revenue is a challenging thing, you know this better than I do. But I see the opportunity to work alongside said new sales leader, and CEO, founder, visionary, whatever, and have them collaborate and exercise the

[00:20:10] muscle of sales as a visionary, because the visionary doesn't want to lose sight of the customer, and understand what that customer is buying. The sales leader who's newly minted, wants to just say, Oh, I got it, you don't need to do anything. And I'm like, Listen, pal, if you push that visionary out the door, you're going to go out the door too, because they're going to feel like you've taken control from them. The secret sauce of the visionary is to bring them in when you can use them in the process.

[00:20:39] And then when you're not using them in the process, feed information to them, so that they know where we are. And it won't cause this tension of you're not giving me information. So I think the answer for me is to understand, put your put yourself in the seat of the visionary understanding how hard it is for them to go from running sales to watching sales, get them in the process where you can and feed them information. So in sales, it, I mean, that's my my world. So

[00:21:09] It's your world, I told you, I'll step into your sandbox. But you're right, when you get that CEO, it's really, again, setting their expectations. Yeah, that's it. Need you to step back. But here's what I will need, will need. Those two big customers that we don't want to lose that we've had for 20 years that love us, and we love them. And they could stay,

[00:21:33] they buy everything from us. I take them out twice a year just to see how we're doing just to check in account management, kind of like making sure that everything's going right. I need you with me on those, right? Because I want you to hear their words to hear what innovations we need. I want you to hear, right? And we set it up. So that conversation with that customer speaks to that visionary, right? And if you got an integrator, it's the same thing, right? You just do it the other way.

[00:22:00] But if you set that up that way, and then you, as you say, feed them information about accounts, because it's okay for that guy to like, hey, I was talking to my VP, and he said we had a little rough patch, and he solved it. Are we happy? Are we good? Everything's great? Like that little touch from that CEO, not asking a lot. But that little touch with that customer might just like, man,

[00:22:28] he still cares, even though I'm dealing with this guy. How much about that has to do with insecurity? I've met so many people that are like, oh, if I let them in, then they're going to perceive me as less than. If that visionary, if that CEO is competent, right? Let's assume that because that's not always the case. Let's assume that he's competent. Then it really falls into that insecurity bucket,

[00:22:57] right? If it's about we don't trust them to do the thing the way we've been doing it, then that's a different issue, right? There might be a competence issue. There might be just a trust issue in a general sense. But I would say more often than not, that leader, sales leader, manager,

[00:23:21] VP, CRO, whatever you want to call them. They have this idea that it's a zero sum game, they have to be the hero. And that if they don't ask for help, then they'll get it figured out. But there's a lot of organizations, especially in the EOS world, that if you're not asking for help, they know you're struggling. Yeah. Because they sat in that seat, they know what happens, like nobody has all the

[00:23:50] answers. So somebody so how do you that's the I think the question is like, how do we get that level of trust built within the organization to do what Covey talks about, right? To the speed of trust is, is because that could be built up and then it can be destroyed in a matter of minutes. Right. So you have that idea of incompetence, which we can take that off the table because

[00:24:16] that doesn't happen very often. But most of the time, it's that insecurity that you're talking about from the leader. Well, you asked a question and I think I have some opinions around how we establish that trust. And I think as a fractional COO, that's one of the beautiful things that we get to deliver. We get to come in and help navigate those conversations. And always everyone's like, oh, what do you do? I'm like, well, I'm part therapist, part ops consultant, part psychiatrist, part friend, part enemy, part accountability partner. It's like having

[00:24:46] someone that can help you navigate those interpersonal relationships with employees and direct reports is invaluable. And if you're not big enough to have an HR team, have someone in your business that's a mentor, an advisor that you could say, hey, I'm going to bring Walter in because I trust Walter. Walter, will you just make sure I'm not crazy? Will you do an hour meeting with me and

[00:25:10] an hour meeting with Bill and help us kind of see if we're, you know, apples and oranges here or if we're aligned? And I think having a third party translate that message helps establish trust because next, okay, great. We have that meeting. We download, we talk about it, we move on. Well, fast forward six weeks. I may call you and say, hey, Walter, you talked to Bill. This just popped up. What do you think?

[00:25:39] It's like you go from seeing this to having, okay, great. Someone else's perspective on it. So if there is a challenge with trust or a lack thereof, or it's just a new relationship, having someone, a third party involved for me is invaluable. Yeah. Cause you're always going to have bumps in the road, right? It's, it's, it's actually one of the things when I talk about, I start an engagement with somebody, right? The road that we're about to go down, it's windy. It's uphill, downhill, a lot of

[00:26:08] bumps, some pothills. I'll try to point them out to you in advance. You're going to step in some of them. It's just going to happen and it's, it's going to be uncomfortable, but I like the idea of having that. I don't know, maybe it's an arbiter. Maybe it's like somebody with a little gray hair, somebody that doesn't have skin in the game or every one of those that maybe has some freaking common sense. Cause sometimes it's just, it's, it's just people being people, right?

[00:26:37] That's exactly right. It's people being people and, and the lack, I think actually, I think to your point on wisdom, the gray hair and the wisdom, I think the lack of subject matter expertise in that triangle for the arbiter is best, right? I don't, cause then I'm not coming in as the sales guy. I don't know shit about sales. I'm an ops guy. So we're going to talk about sales. Great. I'll just be the ops guy listening. I'm not coming in to try to break a tie. I'm just coming in to

[00:27:03] generally help, you know, facilitate a conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I think that's, I think that's valuable. So let's talk a little bit about you, the business, how, like what I, what I like, I like a guest to do is who is your ICP? If they're listening and they have an open seat or they need help with ops, like, yeah, how do they self-identify? Start there.

[00:27:31] No, great question. So, uh, I work with visionary entrepreneurs. Generally their businesses are between five and 50 million in revenue and they either have never had a trusted right hand. They're curious as to what a trusted right hand could look like, or they know they need to hire them. They just don't know what they look like. So we, as fractional COOs and integrators come in, um, and sit to the right of the, of the founder and help them understand the challenges that they're doing. A lot of

[00:28:01] accountability, a lot of just general business practices. I'm a generalist in nature. I can hold my own in any department of the business, but don't consider myself a subject matter expert. But what I do consider myself a subject matter expert in is, is finding talent and bringing talent on and onboarding and setting expectations for that person. So we don't sell ourselves as the end all be all or a stop gap in between A to B. Um, and we'd like to bring in our replacement.

[00:28:29] Yeah. That's the shortest way of saying it. So I like the idea of bringing in a replacement and I was doing a lot of fractional work. That was like, like, I'm not here forever, dude. Like, let's, let's, let's be clear. We'll get, we'll get three months. We're going to have the conversation again, right. And figure out, you know, where we are, what we need to do, what the next steps are, but we're going to put somebody in the seat. So any particular niche industry marketplace?

[00:28:55] Service-based businesses, both B2B, B2C, and I tend to work in blue collar. So I think back through some of the engagements that have, that have served me well, um, mechanical contracting services firm, exterior renovations company that works on high rises, uh, aluminum manufacturing business that manufactures access ramps for portable buildings. Uh, and then I actually, one of my proud

[00:29:21] ones, I just helped a software services firm sell their business to Accenture last year. Um, I was fortunate to be with them from the beginning as a fractional, we scaled up the business and then, uh, was able to help them exit to Accenture. And right now I'm serving out a transition period for them, getting them integrated into Accenture so that they can, you know, you know, build their services inside the firm. So service-based businesses, that's, that's the simplest way

[00:29:50] to say it. It's kind of a vague vagueness, but I do like blue collar. The HVAC, the electrical contractors, the roofing contractors, there, there's something cool about see what I did, right? And you could point at it, right? There's a, uh, there's a, there's a air conditioning unit that's in, a furnace is in, the roof is on, there's no holes. Um, that, that's kind

[00:30:15] of a, a tangible, cool thing as opposed to, you know, somebody that sells smoke and mirrors, right? Uh, and, and that's not an insult, but marketing, advertising, branding, uh, what the hell I do is, is somewhat, you know, there's some tangible to it, but I can't point at a roof and say, we're done. It's up there. No, I always say it, there's, there's the line between subjective and objective.

[00:30:40] And a lot of what we do as advisors and consultants is subjective. You're doing a great job. It's like, well, how can we show that evidence? Well, I can evidence by the fact that your company's on track to the goals you've set, you know, your sales numbers are hitting where they need to be. That makes it objective. But the, the beginning, middle and end of a construction project or a tangible physical thing is great because you have that thrill of landing the deal, the thrill of executing the deal, and then the thrill of hopefully looking back and,

[00:31:07] and being proud of your work. So yeah, I agree with you. It's kind of, it's kind of a cool piece. So what's the best way for that visionary leader in that space that wants to reach out? How did they get ahold of you? You can reach out to me, uh, via LinkedIn. I've got a nice following on LinkedIn or our company's called Sinclair Ventures, a terrible name for an operations business, but it's, it is what it is. So it's Sinclair Ventures.com and my name is Matt at Sinclair Ventures.com. So it's a great way to

[00:31:36] reach out. We've got some testimonials about clients we've worked with in the past on there. Um, and you know, we love having conversations around entrepreneurial struggles. So the, all of the, all of his deets, the website, the LinkedIn profile, everything will be in the show notes, folks. Um, if you've got questions, reach out and I'm happy to have conversations with you. Um, last question, Matt, past or present, any relationship with cigars?

[00:32:03] Yeah, great question. So I am a golfer, as you can tell behind me, this is one of my favorite golf holes in the world. And a lot of my buddies I've met playing golf over the last 25 years, smoked cigars, and I'll end up on a golf trip somewhere with one of them and, and they'll have the whole story and the thing. And I, um, I just never got into it. I'll tell you why my one beef, I love the smell. I love the vibe. I love the conversations. I ended up the next day

[00:32:31] scraping out the taste of the cigar from my mouth. So I, therefore it literally and figuratively leaves a bad taste in my mouth. So I didn't pursue it. I, I love the idea of it, but I don't know how to get past that. Well, after, uh, after we stopped the recording, I'll help you with that. Okay. And not to encourage bad behavior. Yeah. Um, but it's interesting how often golf comes up

[00:32:57] and cigars. Yeah. Um, 20 some years ago, I don't remember how long it's been, but that was, as my wife said that one summer I developed two bad habits, golf and cigars. Um, and she's not sure which one was more expensive at the time. So yeah, well, they're both pretty expensive. I can see correlations between obsessing over detail and obsessing over fine things like we do in the golf

[00:33:24] world. But I, I love, I, some of my best friends are regular cigar smokers and, uh, put on a golf course, right. It's like you're outside. You're usually with friends. Yep. Um, there, there may be a cocktail or two involved. Um, and you're, and you're, and you're just trying to have fun despite the game. Yeah. Right. It's incredibly frustrating, but in the cigar kind of just helps you slow it down a little bit. It does. Which I do find it's another thing I have to remember

[00:33:54] writing golf. You've got a lot of shit to remember. You got, you got your glove, your head cover, your thing, the number, the, this, the cart thing. And it's like the cigar, but you know, they have those holders where you can stick them on the upright, but they're always there. So they're not burning and wins. It's kind of a good idea. It's like just making something fun. And it's right there in front of you. But it also helps you. It literally helps you slow down. Right. And yeah. And when you're, when you're on the golf course, I mean, you need the club, you need the

[00:34:20] glove and you just need to relax and go hit that, hit that ball. Right. Stop overthinking it. Yeah. That's, that's like with most things. If we stop overthinking it, we'll be better off. That's exactly right. I appreciate it. Um, you you're in Austin, so you can go golfing this afternoon, can't you? You don't want to know, but it is 70 degrees and absolutely beautiful behind my camera is my front yard and it's glorious. So, but we do have the summers. I would take your

[00:34:47] Michigan summers any day over my Austin summers hot as hell down here. Well, that's why they have people that go north and south, right? Winter, uh, winter in the south and summer up north. Uh, aspirations. It is a little hot in Texas. So for sure. Thanks man. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Walter.